When talking about application development, Vitalik said that the foundation is positioned as an enabler rather than a leader, and hopes that the local community will promote it spontaneously. At present, we should focus on DeFi, RWA, decentralized social networking and other directions, rather than talking about "applications" in general. He called on Chinese teams to participate in underlying research such as Ethereum POS 2.0 (Beam Chain) to promote protocol evolution. Regarding the "Blockchain Trilemma", Vitalik believes that the layered architecture has broken through about 70% of the technical bottlenecks. In the future, with the help of account abstraction, ZK technology, L1-L2 data sharing, etc., it is expected to achieve a "WeChat-level" Web3 application experience.
He proposed that by sinking the service logic to L1, the threshold for L2 development can be significantly lowered, and L2 should also pay for the basic services provided by L1 to achieve value return. In terms of the scope of application of "decentralization and centralization", Vitalik emphasized that the real world, such as RWA and identity systems, requires a partial trust mechanism. Blockchain should reduce the trust cost through cryptography and ZK rather than extreme decentralization, thereby improving fairness and efficiency. Regarding the global ecosystem, both sides believe that Chinese and American developers constitute two core forces. Vitalik pointed out that the foundation has limited resources and mainly focuses on underlying construction and educational support, and commercial applications should be driven by the community itself. Finally, Xiao Feng suggested that the foundation set up an office in Hong Kong and restart the Hackathon and Workshop in mainland China. Vitalik responded positively and thanked the Chinese community for its support and contributions over the years.
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Xiao Feng and Vitalik recall their first visit to China, and the Chinese community supports the development of Ethereum
Xiao Feng: Thank you everyone. Let me tell you a secret first. 2025 will be the tenth anniversary of my acquaintance with Vitalik. We met for the first time in Shanghai in 2015, so it is with great emotion that we are talking again now. Of course, some of these feelings involve private matters, so we won’t discuss them in detail in public. In 2015, Vitalik probably stayed in Shanghai for about three months. Although he had been here many times, these three months were probably the longest ones.
So I'd like to know what your impressions are of China, Shanghai, China's Ethereum community, or China's Ethereum developers, from then until now? This is a question that many Chinese developers are very interested in.
Vitalik: Yes, I remember the first time I came to China was in 2014. I went from Xi'an to Beijing, and then went to Shanghai, Hangzhou, Shenzhen, and visited various places. At that time, I felt that there were already many companies, teams, developers, and brands in China doing various things. I remember visiting exchanges like OKCoin and Huobi and finding that they had more employees than the largest exchanges in the United States. And there were a lot of Bitcoin miners who were in the transition phase from FPGA to ASIC, around 2013 to 2014.
I remember once I went to Shenzhen and saw some particularly large mining farms in the suburbs. Those mines had a large number of mining machines. At that time, I already felt that China's computing power was very strong, and various teams were actively promoting the development of Bitcoin and blockchain.
At that time, I noticed that these teams, projects and companies in China were very large, but almost no one abroad knew of their existence and had no recognition at all. At that time, internationally, basically everyone only knew about Ethereum and miners, but the Chinese ecosystem was already doing a lot of more in-depth things.
I remember back in 2015, you and some other companies had started doing some very interesting things. Since 2015, the Chinese community has made many important early contributions to the development of Ethereum. Thank you very much for your support at such an early stage.
I remember you guys bought a lot of Ethereum Foundation tokens. The foundation really needed the money at the time, and it can be said that it survived thanks to that funding. Later, I also felt that the Chinese community was becoming more and more complex and diverse, and people began to focus on many different directions, such as protocol research, cryptography research, formula algorithm research, etc.
In fact, it can be said that in 2015, apart from Israel and San Francisco, there were really no particularly interesting blockchain projects in other places. But in 2016, I remember that you launched many projects. Now we can see that there are many excellent research teams working on ZK (zero-knowledge proof), AI and other fields. These all show that the quality of the community has become very high.
How Vitalik learned Chinese in one year and gave speeches in Chinese
Xiao Feng: I told Vitalik the day before yesterday that we should have this conversation in Chinese, hahahaha. Just now I recalled that when we were together in early 2015, he actually couldn't speak a word of Chinese. But one day he told me that he wanted to start learning Chinese. A year later, around August 2016, in September of that year, Wanxiang Blockchain held a "Blockchain Week" in Shanghai, and he was our main guest.
I contacted him in advance in August and asked him if he had a PPT, please send me a copy first so that I could find someone to translate it into Chinese and English to help participants better understand it. But he told me that no, he would write the PPT in Chinese and give the speech in Chinese. It only took one year. I am very curious, how did you manage to not only learn to speak Chinese but even write speeches in Chinese in such a short time? This is actually much more difficult than simply being able to speak.
Of course I also recall that in May 2016, we went to New York, San Francisco and London together. I remember in a New York taxi, Vitalik, me, and Shen Bo from Decentralized Capital, the three of us were chatting in the car. At that time, Shen Bo and I were discussing something in Chinese. Before we finished talking, Vitalik took out his mobile phone and asked me, "Is this the meaning of the word you just said?" This is how he learned Chinese, and he learned it little by little. But I still want to hear how you managed to learn Chinese so quickly?
Vitalik: I have actually tried this method of learning new languages many times. My first step is usually to use an audio course called Pimsleur, which is available in many languages and each course has 90 episodes of 30 minutes each. They start teaching from the most basic level. For example, the first lesson is "Hello," "I am in the United States," and "I am in China." The content of each lesson will gradually become more complex.
The course method is to listen, read aloud, and answer questions repeatedly. During the whole process, you will keep speaking and repeating, and gradually master the basic expressions.
Later, I added the "character recognition" part because learning Chinese not only requires being able to speak it, but also understanding the concept of Chinese characters, which is more complicated than many other languages. I used a flashcard app to learn 20 Chinese characters every day. The system would repeatedly test whether you remembered the meaning and pronunciation of these characters. Just keep practicing and accumulate slowly.
The only truly effective way to learn is to communicate with people. Whether it’s voice or chat software, speak and write more whenever you have the chance. I remember when I traveled to some cities in China, I would make a point to look at the street signs on every street because they all had Chinese and pinyin on them. Through the continuous accumulation of this daily scene, I can learn something new every day.
After about one or two years, the most important thing is to put yourself in an all-Chinese language environment, so that you can continue to understand more content and practice more ways of expression. If you are in this kind of environment every day, you will naturally become more and more proficient.
How do you view Chinese developers’ contributions and feelings towards Ethereum?
Xiao Feng: I still remember that in January 2016, Wanxiang Blockchain and Deloitte jointly held the first Ethereum hackathon in Shanghai. More than 100 people flew in from all over the world to attend the event, most of whom were Chinese, coming from Beijing or the southwest. But there were also some international participants, such as a high school student from Italy who flew to Shanghai Ginseng. He came alone, and we formed a team for him on the spot. As a result, their team won the first prize.
Later, this high school student found Wanxiang Blockchain and asked if he could join our team. He said he did not plan to return to Italy. We advised him at the time to at least finish high school and then consider the future after getting into college. As a result, a year later, he returned to Europe to participate in a project called LTA, and later became the technical backbone of this project.
The reason I tell this story is that China's developer community has made a lot of contributions to Ethereum's community building, technology development, and market promotion since 2015, 2016, and 2017, and they also have a very deep affection for Ethereum. This is not just a technical investment, but more of a deep love.
I remember when you gave a speech at the Wanxiang Blockchain Forum in 2016, the welcome you received at the scene was like treating you like a star, and the cheers were even louder than they are now. So next, I would like to represent the Chinese Ethereum community and Chinese developers, whether they are currently developing directly on Ethereum or not, everyone very much hopes to hear you or the Ethereum Foundation express some ideas. How do you hope to support Chinese developers to help them better play their role in the Ethereum ecosystem, build communities, and develop applications?
Vitalik: Yes, I think one very important point is that we have actually solved many information gap problems. In the past, communities such as China, India, and Latin America did not know many things, but now the situation has improved greatly.
For example, during the three days I was here, I met many community activities and organizers. They already had a deep understanding of issues such as account abstraction and consensus algorithms. This shows that our information connections are getting better.
In addition, we have recently launched a project called Deep Funding. This project is an open competition. Anyone who can provide a good AI model and answer community questions will receive rewards. I met a participant at another event last year who is now working on a project like this. This kind of connection is becoming more and more common, bringing many positive effects.
What we need most now is actually more specific "applications". But sometimes I don’t like the word “application” because it’s too broad. For example, Facebook is also called an application, Tencent is also called an application. If Ethereum is simply summarized as an "application", it is actually difficult to reflect the unique value of this industry.
I hope to see more people pushing forward in some niche areas, such as DeFi (including real assets such as RWA), decentralized social, info finance, etc. It doesn't mean that a hundred people should work together to develop an application, but rather that they should be distributed in different directions, with twenty to thirty talented people pushing each direction in depth. This way, the community will be more interesting and more promising.
In fact, there are already many teams building communities, discussing topics, organizing activities, and attracting developer participation. These are all things that are very worthy of encouragement. The Ethereum Foundation also has many local community support programs. For example, for the various activities you have seen in the past few days, we will provide different forms of support - including funding, tools, platform resources, etc.
The goal of our foundation is not to control the Ethereum ecosystem, but to promote its self-growth. The ideal situation for us is that we do something today and we no longer need to do it in the future because the ecosystem is strong enough and autonomous enough.
Another important point is about L1 (Layer 1) development. In fact, everyone can start on their own in this regard. They don’t need to know anyone in particular, nor do they need approval from the foundation. As long as you have the passion and ability, you can participate directly.
Another issue we have been working on recently is the definition and promotion of L2 decentralized standards (stage 0, stage 1, stage 2). Many L2 projects now claim to be decentralized, but the standards are unclear and it is more of a marketing tactic. We hope to use a clear set of technical standards to judge, such as meeting certain security requirements and technical specifications, so that it can be recognized as a true stage 2 decentralized network.
This approach can make the entire ecosystem fairer and easier for newcomers and small teams to participate.
We have the same idea in the development of L1. Now our researcher Justin Drake is promoting a project called Beam Chain, which can be said to be an attempt at Ethereum POS 2.0. We have done a lot of research on POS (Proof of Stake) over the past decade, and now we have a deeper understanding of algorithms, quantum security, and game theory. We hope to bring these results together in a new L1 experiment project that can be participated by teams around the world.
There are already at least 7 candidate teams for Beam Chain. I even know that teams from Shanghai Jiao Tong University and some domestic universities are also conducting related research. If anyone is interested in this direction, I strongly recommend you to pay attention and get involved.
The current problem with L1 research is that it is difficult to participate even if you have good skills if you don’t know anyone in the relevant group. This is a problem we particularly want to solve. Therefore, the research and development of Beam Chain will adopt a completely open approach to attract more new teams to participate in the construction from scratch, so that the basic layer of Ethereum can evolve in the long term.
How does blockchain break through the "Blockchain Trilemma"? When will “WeChat-level” applications appear?
Xiao Feng: Haha, yes, after what you said just now, I actually have three questions I want to discuss with you. The first problem is that everyone knows that there is a theory called the "Blockchain Trilemma of Blockchain" - that is, decentralization, security and performance, you cannot have all three. You can only take into account two of them and sacrifice the third. This is not just a blockchain problem. Many other systems, such as exchange rate mechanisms, also have similar logic. It is essentially a mathematical problem.
So how can blockchain significantly improve performance and scalability while ensuring decentralization and security? If efficiency and scalability cannot be improved, large-scale applications will not be supported. From the perspective of cost and user experience, it seems that solving this triangular problem on a plane is not feasible.
So my personal opinion is that to this day, I still believe that only the layered architecture proposed by Ethereum, that is, the L1 and L2 approach, is the best solution to this "Blockchain Trilemma". You just mentioned the relationship between L1 and L2.
But then I would like to ask a question from another perspective - how to solve the problem of "ease of use"? That is to lower the threshold for using this technology to the lowest level, reduce the cost to the lowest level, and maximize the experience. Because only if a new high-tech product or service is truly easy to use can it be adopted by a wider range of people.
Our industry has been asking a question: When will the "killer application" in the blockchain field appear? It's the kind of application that has a large number of users. The premise for large-scale application must be higher efficiency, lower cost, and stronger scalability.
Just like the computer system has evolved from the original DOS command line operating system to the graphical interface, and then to the mobile Internet APP, the usage threshold has been lowered step by step. If we were still using the DOS command line today, I'm afraid there wouldn't be hundreds of millions of people using computers in the world. So after Microsoft launched the graphical operating system, the number of users expanded from millions to hundreds of millions and then to billions. Eventually, the popularity of mobile Internet made it possible to complete operations with just one finger, leading to the current scale of over 5 billion Internet users worldwide.
So what I want to ask is: our current layered architecture is good, but the threshold of "ease of use" is still too high. When will blockchain’s “APP moment” come? In other words, a complex Web3 system can be accessed by ordinary users without any awareness through a super APP, just like WeChat - no matter how complex the system is, users can use it by just clicking on an icon. When will this "WeChat-level" blockchain experience appear? I think that will be the real node for the outbreak of killer applications. What do you think?
Vitalik: Yes, I think it will take a lot of time to achieve that moment. We are definitely making progress, but there are still some technical issues that have not been fully resolved.
As I mentioned in my speech this morning, Ethereum still faces challenges in terms of scalability. You may remember that I mentioned in my speech in 2015 that the development of blockchain faces four technical challenges: the first is scalability, the second is POS (proof of stake), the third is privacy protection, and the fourth is security.
Now, zero-knowledge proof (ZK) is developing rapidly, and the scalability has also been significantly improved. The POS mechanism has been successfully launched, but there is still room for further optimization; in terms of security, we not only focus on the security of the protocol itself, but also on the security of user accounts.
For example, in the past, users had two extreme options for on-chain asset management: one was complete self-custody, storing private keys on computers, mobile phones, or even paper. This was very decentralized, but too complicated and dangerous for most people, and even difficult for me.
Another way is to use centralized services, but this brings up trust issues. The collapse of MT.Gox and FTX are obvious examples.
So our current focus is on how to find a better balance between the two. For example, we now have a series of solutions such as multi-sig, account abstraction, ZK Email, etc., all of which are aimed at improving user experience and reducing security risks.
Going back to the "APP moment" you just mentioned, I feel that based on the four goals we set in 2015, we have achieved about 50% to 70% today. As long as we solve the remaining technical problems, the application will definitely come.
Why do I believe this? Because we have seen some cases, such as Worldcoin now has 10 million users, institutions such as Sony, Kraken, and Deutsche Bank have also deployed L2 on Ethereum, and there are many countries, such as Argentina, Turkey, and some regions in Southeast Asia, where there are a large number of users using stablecoins, ETH, and DeFi services.
All these indicate that the infrastructure is almost ready. As long as the final user experience bottleneck can be removed and developers are willing to invest, killer applications are entirely possible.
So I am still relatively optimistic. We will eventually have that “app moment”. OK.
How to make L2 lighter and easier to build: move the dirty work to L1, and L2 pays the fees
Xiao Feng: You just mentioned that traditional large institutions like Deutsche Bank have also begun to build the second layer (L2) on Ethereum. We also launched Hashtag Chain in December last year, which is an L2 based on Ethereum. But in the process of building HushKey Chain, I always have a feeling that compared with developing an APP, the cost of building an L2 chain is still very high.
For example, if you want to build an L2 from scratch, it might take 20 engineers a whole year. Not only do you have to build the chain itself, you also have to make a browser, wallet, development tools, etc. It is far from as simple as "writing a chain". During the implementation of this chain, the cost of technical operation and maintenance alone may reach millions of dollars each year.
Of course I know that L2 cannot be as cheap, fast, and low-cost as mobile APP, but if you put yourself in my shoes, the threshold is indeed too high for those who want to start an L2 project from scratch. They need to recruit 20 professional developers and solve various integration and operation and maintenance issues.
So now I have a "whimsical suggestion": Can these "dirty and hard work" be sunk to L1 as much as possible? In other words, L1 provides more basic capabilities, making L2 itself lighter, thinner, and easier to develop. In this way, there is no need to invest so much manpower, time and resources to build an L2 like HushKey. Do you think it's possible? When will it be realized?
Vitalik: We are actually already doing this. Some specific examples can be given to illustrate this.
Currently, one of the high costs of L2 is integration. In other words, application developers on L2 usually need to access various basic services, such as Oracle, Filecoin, identity systems, etc., which need to be deployed and managed separately.
So what we are doing now is to make the connection between L2 and L1 more efficient. I also mentioned this topic this morning. for example:
The first step is to improve the communication efficiency between L1 and L2. Currently, it takes about a week to submit the status from L2 back to L1. We hope to shorten it to one hour first and eventually to 12 seconds. This will significantly reduce the delay in data transmission.
The second is that L1 introduces an opcode called L1SLOAD, which means that the EVM on L2 can directly read the data on L1. For example, if each L2 needs to deploy an Oracle independently, it is actually a waste of resources. But if you can directly read the Oracle information on L1, you can share data and reduce duplication.
Another example is a wallet. If we want users to support Account Abstraction, such as being able to freely change private keys, switch signature algorithms, etc., the current practice is to issue transactions on each L2 to update the settings every time, which is very troublesome. But if we deploy this critical account information on L1, we only need to change it once on L1, and each L2 can read the status synchronously, and this problem will be solved.
This is also the concept of "Keystore Wallet" that I proposed - the core state of the user's wallet is stored in L1, and all L2 can read it directly, truly realizing a shared account structure.
Therefore, as long as we can do a good job in the interface design between L1 and L2, we can make L2 lighter and developers do not need to reinvent the wheel.
Moreover, this model brings an additional benefit: we can promote the emergence of "L1 and L2 hybrid apps". These applications are no longer exclusive to L1 or L2, but can use data and services from both layers simultaneously to achieve more powerful functional combinations.
Xiao Feng: If L1 can take on more of the "dirty, tiring and hard work", it will indeed solve a core problem that everyone is criticizing now. Because many people currently say that L2 creates a lot of value, but this value is not fed back to L1. L1 provided the infrastructure but ended up not capturing the value it deserved.
If L1 can provide more basic services and make L2 lighter and easier to use, then L2 should pay for these services and return part of the value to L1. This is not only technically reasonable, but also a "value reflux" mechanism in the economic model. Being able to do this is definitely good news for the entire Ethereum ecosystem.
You also mentioned the issue of decentralization just now. There are indeed some projects that are decentralized for the sake of decentralization. They just put up a photo and say that they are "Ethereum native" and "decentralized." But at the application layer, the problem becomes much more complicated.
For example, as you mentioned, RWA (Real World Assets), it is essentially impossible to completely decentralize real assets on the chain. Because the issuance of any RWA is almost legally considered a securities issuance, it inevitably involves issuers, operators, approval processes and regulatory agencies, which inevitably involve a centralized component.
So I think we have to be realistic that at the infrastructure level, Ethereum must remain decentralized, open, and permissionless. But at the application layer, decentralization is not a panacea. The key is to find the balance between "minimizing trust" and "maximizing efficiency" rather than sticking to a certain form.
Discussion on the scope of application of "decentralization" and "centralization"
Xiao Feng: The issuance of a securities asset will naturally involve the issuer, operator, approver and regulator. There will definitely be some centralization or some degree of centralized elements involved. If we want to combine blockchain with traditional finance and build new financial infrastructure with the help of Ethereum or other blockchain systems, we must face this reality.
Finance is strictly regulated because it has strong negative externalities. In the traditional financial sector, the so-called "cutting leeks" behavior is illegal because it reduces social welfare, creates risks and unfairness, and therefore requires regulation. Once this negative externality is introduced into the blockchain world, it cannot be ignored.
As blockchain becomes more integrated with the real world, I think it is reasonable to “layer” the system. As an infrastructure, Ethereum L1 must adhere to decentralization. Just like the basic protocols of the Internet (such as the IP protocol) are open source and do not require permission, anyone who uses the IP protocol to build a network does not need to obtain authorization from others. This openness is the foundation on which the Internet has grown.
The same is true for blockchain technology. As an underlying protocol, its core value lies in open source, permissionless, and decentralization. But at the application layer, the situation is different. Internet applications are essentially centralized, and the Web3 world does not necessarily have to replicate this structure, but the rationality of centralization in certain areas cannot be ignored. How do you view this balance between “centralization vs. decentralization”, especially at the application layer?
Vitalik: Yes, at the application layer, if we are dealing with issues such as real economic activities and relationships between people, complete decentralization or complete trustlessness is impossible.
Why do you say that? Because many behaviors in the real world cannot be proven by cryptography. For example, if I want to sell you a mobile phone, you first transfer 0.5 ETH to me through Ethereum, and then I send the phone to you via DHL. After you receive the phone, you confirm the transaction on the chain.
But the problem is that during this process, the chain cannot verify whether I actually sent the phone. You can’t cryptographically prove “I put the phone in the package” or “DHL actually took the phone.”
Perhaps in the future we can use some very advanced zero-knowledge proof (ZK) technology to prove that I did hand over the phone to DHL, or DHL issues a verifiable logistics proof on the chain (such as ZK + TLS Notary method) - but even so, you still have to trust DHL and believe that I really put the phone in. This type of problem exists widely in the real world and is an area that cryptography cannot fully cover.
Of course, the role of blockchain and cryptography is to minimize the need for this "trust". Because when the trust threshold is high, only large institutions that are widely trusted can participate, and ordinary people are excluded, which is not conducive to fairness.
What we can do through blockchain technology is to allow more people to have the right to participate. For example, RWA (real world assets) can be issued in the form of tokens. For example, I issue a Filecoin token with a total of 1 million units. I only issue 1 million on the chain, and the system can publicly verify that there is no over-issuance. Through ZK technology, I can also prove to the chain that I do have US dollar or Hong Kong dollar assets corresponding to these 1 million tokens in a certain bank account.
For example, if a government wants to issue digital identity IDs, the public may worry that it is secretly issuing "ghost IDs" to manipulate elections or social platforms. If these IDs are released on-chain and the total amount is visible, the public can confirm that the government has only issued 1 million, not 2 million. This mechanism can greatly reduce the cost of trust in the government.
This trust-reducing mechanism can improve efficiency on the one hand and enhance fairness on the other. Because the high trust threshold means it is difficult for small organizations or individuals to participate, only large institutions that are widely trusted can enter. Once trust can be replaced by verification mechanisms, more people will have opportunities, which will make the economy and society more open and fair.
Of course, in some rare scenarios, such as the verification of math competition problems, complete decentralization can indeed be achieved - for example, I design a smart contract, and if you can submit a valid ZKP (zero-knowledge proof) that satisfies a certain formula, I will give you a reward; otherwise, I will not give you any. This type of scenario is suitable for a fully automatic and verifiable logic loop.
But in 99% of economic activities in the real world, this idealized completely decentralized mechanism is not possible.
Xiao Feng: Yes, I totally agree. This is actually something we must always remind ourselves when developing Web3 or blockchain applications - not all problems can be solved by decentralization.
Of course, we should try our best to use the parts that can be solved by decentralization. Because it can reduce trust costs and improve system fairness, efficiency and transparency. However, for those scenarios that need to connect to the physical world and require behavior verification, such as mobile phone transactions and physical logistics, the on-chain mechanism cannot currently cover all of them.
The example you just gave is a good one. We still have to trust DHL to deliver the phone and believe that it actually completes the delivery.
Therefore, we should not be obsessed with "100% decentralization from the bottom layer to the application layer". Decentralization is not an end, it is just a means to achieve a more efficient, fairer and lower-cost economic system. We should make good use of it, but also accept its boundaries and limitations.
Now, Ethereum has entered the layered architecture stage, which I believe is the prerequisite for blockchain to move towards large-scale application.
How do Chinese and American developers collaborate when launching large-scale applications?
Xiao Feng: Well, now this new stage has arrived. Vitalik also mentioned earlier that many key technologies, including the continuous optimization of L2, are advancing rapidly. We are also gradually approaching the threshold of large-scale application of blockchain.
From the Internet, AI to cryptocurrency, we can see an interesting phenomenon: the top 15 Internet platforms in the world, except for the United States, are basically Chinese companies. The same is true for large AI models. In addition to the United States, China has also demonstrated its research and development capabilities, such as through DeepSync, Huawei, Baidu, etc. But countries like Japan, India, the European Union and the United Kingdom have not yet come up with a competitive large model. In other words, technological capabilities are not evenly distributed across the globe.
I think a similar pattern will emerge with blockchain. Although developers are spread all over the world, they are mainly concentrated in two language circles: the English circle (centered on the United States) and the Chinese circle (centered on China). The scale of English developers is indeed larger, but Chinese developers also constitute another large ecological group.
So the question is: If we really want to push Ethereum into the stage of large-scale application, how should Chinese developers, product managers, operators, and users participate? In fact, the Chinese are very capable at the application layer. They have been winning in the "competition" since the Internet era, and have created a large number of excellent product managers and platform operators.
For example, among the top ten digital asset exchanges in the world, more than half were founded or operated by Chinese. Why? Because the technical essence of Bitcoin is the same in all exchanges, but customer experience and user service are areas where the Chinese are clearly better at.
So if we acknowledge that Ethereum is entering a development phase focused on applications, how can we better leverage the strengths of Chinese-speaking developers? Not just developers, but also operators and users. There are more than 1.4 billion Chinese Internet users, and when combined with Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan and overseas Chinese, it constitutes a huge market. Do we have a strategy for this group to incentivize them to develop applications on Ethereum and promote adoption?
Vitalik: Yes, this is a very critical issue.
First of all, I think that promoting the development of applications should not be "directly undertaken" by the Ethereum Foundation. We don’t want everyone to still rely on the foundation to promote ecological development in five or ten years. We also hope that every local community around the world can grow and have the ability to drive itself, organize, incubate, and implement various projects on its own.
In recent years, we have noticed that the developer communities in China, Asia, and even Africa have grown and have established more and more communications with our foundation, especially in promoting local developer organizations, project incubation, and talent training.
There are two reasons why we don’t want to do everything:
The first reason is to avoid centralization. A healthy ecosystem cannot rely entirely on a centralized institution. We hope that Ethereum can evolve on its own, rather than the Foundation taking the lead in promoting every application or project.
The second reason is limited resources. You may not believe it, but the amount of ETH held by the foundation now is even less than that of Justin Sun(laughs). Our budget is very limited, and many organizations in the community actually have stronger financial resources than us.
And, fundamentally, applications are self-sustaining. If you create a valuable application, you can attract users, obtain investment, and make a profit. Therefore, we pay more attention to those areas where "if the foundation does not do it, no one else will do it."
For example, L1 core research and development, ZK Email, Account Abstraction, ZK Wrapper and other infrastructure components. These are areas with high barriers to entry and low commercial returns, so we are willing to provide more support.
However, for the development of DApps, wallets and other applications, they are actually already profitable and no longer need to be promoted by the foundation itself.
So our strategy is to focus on supporting the growth of local communities. We hope to help more developers understand the core concepts and architectural components of Ethereum, such as L1, L2, ZK, clients, etc., and guide them to explore in specific application scenarios.
We cannot build and manage all communities around the world, so we need to work with local organizations to enable them to build their own developer ecosystem within their own cultural and language backgrounds.
We have already taken some actions in this regard. Compared with two years ago, communication and cooperation with Asian developers have become much smoother.
We also encourage everyone to proactively express their needs. If you encounter problems or have specific needs during the project, our foundation is willing to provide support. We hope that in the next one or two years, every city will have a stronger developer community and nurture a new generation of core builders of Ethereum.
This transformation has actually already begun, and we believe it can develop better and broader.
Ethereum should set up an office in Hong Kong and restart mainland hackathons and workshops
Xiao Feng: Yes, just like you said just now, the foundation focuses on doing things that application developers cannot accomplish independently, such as ZK (zero-knowledge proof), Layer 1 protocol research, etc. This is correct. Because the foundation should have a clear positioning. When application developers build on Ethereum, they may indeed need the support and help of the Foundation and the Ethereum community to understand how to do better on Ethereum. This help may not necessarily be financial, but may be more likely to be technical guidance, resource matching or even exposure channels.
So we are holding this meeting at ETH Action today, and we have also invited representatives from the Ethereum community from various Asian countries. We hope that there will be such a gathering of the Asian Ethereum community every year. We can discuss how to promote the application and technology of Ethereum in Asia. This is a great platform in itself.
On this basis, I have two suggestions for the Ethereum Foundation:
The first suggestion is that I hope the Ethereum Foundation can set up an office in Hong Kong. This is very helpful to the entire Ethereum community in Asia, including application developers. This office is not only a symbolic existence, but also a contact window that can actually provide technical consultation, coaching resources, and exposure opportunities. Many developers don't necessarily need money from the foundation, but they do need a place to seek support and connections, especially for some start-up projects.
In fact, one of the purposes of our two-day meeting is to help these developers and projects increase exposure, establish connections, and find cooperative resources. This is the first suggestion, and you can see that everyone has expressed their support with applause just now, haha.
The second suggestion is that I think the foundation, including you, should return to mainland China and restart face-to-face interaction with Chinese developers. You did very well in the past. I remember that you often came to Shanghai in 2017 and 2018, but later it was interrupted due to the epidemic.
Now that the epidemic is over, it is a good time to resume this interaction. For example, the foundation can consider restarting hackathons and workshops in the mainland; you can also go to various places in person to communicate face to face with developers. In October this year, we will hold the 11th Blockchain Global Summit in Shanghai. You have participated in the previous seven consecutive sessions, and we very much welcome you to participate again.
We at Wanxiang Blockchain are very willing to assist and promote this matter. We hope to restart Ethereum workshops and hackathons in multiple cities in mainland China. This form of activity is not just an activity, but also a substantive guidance for developers, helping them master Ethereum technology and create more practical applications. These are the two suggestions I would like to give to the Foundation and to you today.
Vitalik: Okay, thank you very much, Mr. Xiao. Thank you for your support to the Ethereum community, the Foundation, and the entire blockchain ecosystem over the years. I am really grateful.
Xiao Feng: Okay, thank you everyone. That’s all for today’s conversation. What I can guarantee is that there had been no rehearsal or communication between the two of us before this.
BUTA: Hahaha, OK, thank you.
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